Curse

ICURADik · Jul 25, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Maybe more people will see the necessity that is Hex Breaker. Then again, a trash hex like Wastrel's beforehand can render it inneffective.

Tellani Artini · Jul 25, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Have been on the wrong end of this combo quite a few times lately in the arenas. Not having hex breaker, I usually just try to run out of range so they can't hit me with shatter delusions or virulence, and wait for fragility to end. If you can't get away, or remove fragility, you're doomed.

Azadaleou · Jul 25, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

Have been on the wrong end of this combo quite a few times lately in the arenas. Not having hex breaker, I usually just try to run out of range so they can't hit me with shatter delusions or virulence, and wait for fragility to end. If you can't get away, or remove fragility, you're doomed.

Thats what makes the combo kind of unfair. If your not a class with hex breaker then your screwed up. Nothing you can really do except die or be left with like 20 health.

Vusak · Jul 25, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

much like a E/N cant do crap about a backfire + wastrels combo.

signet of humility hurts this build so much, diversion + wastrels completes the process, with plenty of skillslots remaining for whatever else you wanna do.

if you divert fragility you seriously kill any damage output, if they refrain from using it, then they arent doing any damage output anyway

JackOften · Jul 25, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

He can just fire distortion to counter diversion, durrrrr.

firstwave · Jul 25, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Im a R/Mo and I pretty much beat this combo by using smite hex immediately after fragility is casted on me.

However, if you can't remove hex, heal a large amount of hp with 1 spell, or use hex breaker, you are pretty much screwed. Elementalists and Warriors are affected the most, but if there is a decent monk on the team, fragility build would be less of a pain.

One thing I don't like about the fragility build is because you are likely to run out of energy after the second cycle. Lets see:

15E Fragility
10E Phantom Pain
5E Shatter Delusion
5E Virulence
- You might even spend more mana with Distortion and backfire.

A typical mesmer has about 55 mana so this combo takes quite a bit of mana.

Vusak · Jul 25, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackOften

He can just fire distortion to counter diversion, durrrrr.

diversion has a 5s recast, once his first distortion is on a 40+ second cooldown, he has effectively wasted 5e. and he has no real physical defense which means wanding inbetween wastrel spam will hurt that much more.

QuixotesGhost · Jul 25, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Today I faced a Hex Breaker on a good MeEl.... once I cast Back Fire, it was stopped. I had five seconds to cast another skill before HB recharged. I was able to lay down Fragility, but PP got rejected. Then he lit me up with Obsidian Flame and shot a ton of stone daggers up my butt, lol.

You're mistaken about Hex Breaker there. Hex breaker can be reapplied immediately after it goes down the first time, becuase the last time they probaly used it was at the start of the match. So it's waiting in thier skillbar ready to go, right after you knock it down with the first hex. And since it's a stance it goes up immediatly and can even be applied while they're performing another action.

The varible, however, (and it's really freaking hard to plan for), is "Did they notice Hexbreaker drop when the first hex bounced off of it?" If the answer is ,"yes", then the first and second hexes will bounce off and the third (if you can get it in quick enough) will be the one to stick. If the answer is "no", then the first one will bounce off, the second one will stick, then most of the time they go "OMG, I'm being hexed!" and get hexbreaker back up to block the third. It really all depends on how much they're paying attention to you. If they have you targeted and can see your current skill, you can bet most of the time it'll be the 1st and 2nd they block. Course this varies depending on the casting time of the second hex and your rank in Fast Casting, if your quick you can beat the attentive player to the punch.

Jul 25, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Fragility builds are easy to shutdown as a Mesmer. Hex breaker kills it since they dont have a choice of when to apply what, since alot of their hexes are critical. If they miss fragility well the build goes to hell.

Diversion will end any fragility build easy.

Once all the conditions are applied its still easy to survive. It's just a latent spike damage combo, so just heal through the first set or use condition removal if you have it.

Rangers and Warriors should have no trouble with it if they are packing interrupts.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

You're mistaken about Hex Breaker there. Hex breaker can be reapplied immediately after it goes down the first time, becuase the last time they probaly used it was at the start of the match. So it's waiting in thier skillbar ready to go, right after you knock it down with the first hex. And since it's a stance it goes up immediatly and can even be applied while they're performing another action.

The varible, however, (and it's really freaking hard to plan for), is "Did they notice Hexbreaker drop when the first hex bounced off of it?" If the answer is ,"yes", then the first and second hexes will bounce off and the third (if you can get it in quick enough) will be the one to stick. If the answer is "no", then the first one will bounce off, the second one will stick, then most of the time they go "OMG, I'm being hexed!" and get hexbreaker back up to block the third. It really all depends on how much they're paying attention to you. If they have you targeted and can see your current skill, you can bet most of the time it'll be the 1st and 2nd they block. Course this varies depending on the casting time of the second hex and your rank in Fast Casting, if your quick you can beat the attentive player to the punch.

I'm not mistaken about Hex Breaker.... your second paragraph reflects what happend (as I originally described). I was able to get off the second cast, but he responded in time for the third. He definitely could've stopped the second but didn't. I use this skill myself in some builds and appreciate the great protection it offers for the low price. Honestly, balance wise I'd expect it to cost 10E, but I won't complain.

About the energy issues above, I still have to say it is not an issue with 55E or more. Even if you spend 35E to kill one player, you have to recharge naturally at 4E every three seconds. That's 40E in 30 seconds.... which is how long it takes for Fragility to recharge. If I did nothing else but one Distortion that entire time (-5E), I'd have exactly 55E when Fragility was ready.

With that said, I use Back Fire too (15E), as well as extra Phantom Pains in the meantime, so I do make use of my 69E set with the 3 regen (then switch back to 4 regen). And if I'm really low on fuel (energy drain or interrupt), I can still be almost as effective doing alternate tactics.

For instance, if I've taken out the primary target of mine solo and am looking to help a teammate, I can go to my fellow Warrior's target that he's attacking. More often than not, they have Crippled and/or Bleeding on them.... that saves me the trouble of a cast or two! I send out Fragility at this target (no damage for existing Conditions - yet) and then sprinkle a little Virulence on them.

That's a mere 20E to create havok in a couple of seconds... they now have up to five Conditions on them, three of which will cause a total 204 damage in three seconds, the other two (besides degen) cause another 68 when they recover. That's 55% from 20E, plus I'm gearing up for a Phantom Pain-->Shatter Delusion spike for another two-second, 200+ damage spike (67+100+34 = 201). That will cost only 15E.

All the while my Warrior buddy has been/is pounding on them, so it's a good bet that they are toast before I have to get completely evil on them with all the attacks, unless they have MAJOR healing help, interrupts, quick energy drain, or hex defenses. I emphasize they'll need major healing because trust me, the damage hits so hard and fast (with good stats) that a simple Healing Breeze/Troll Unguent ain't always enough to save them at times.

And as for the Healing Signet that Warriors love, I swear some of the combo's damage connects for double at times while they use this. I'll have to verify. If Shatter Delusion's damage that instantly Deep Wounds and triggers Fragility causes 2x damage in some way (up to 400+ damage from a .25 cast?!), Warriors will be crying for nerfs.

I doubt it since all these attacks ignore armor anyway (the Healing Signet penalty), but I do see extra numbers pop up sometimes that's not related to the normal stuff I see.

Tellani Artini · Jul 25, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I'm carrying around purge signet as long as this is popular. Takes care of it all nicely if you start using it as soon as you see them start casting fragility

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Fragility builds are easy to shutdown as a Mesmer. Hex breaker kills it since they dont have a choice of when to apply what, since alot of their hexes are critical. If they miss fragility well the build goes to hell.

Diversion will end any fragility build easy.

Once all the conditions are applied its still easy to survive. It's just a latent spike damage combo, so just heal through the first set or use condition removal if you have it.

Rangers and Warriors should have no trouble with it if they are packing interrupts.

Mesmer vs. Mesmer proves defense > offense, as I've lost most 1v1s against pure interrupters and Hex Breakers. One opponent made me worthless as he literally followed me and Power Block/Drain//Spike/Leak interrupted EVERYTHING I tried.

If many classes are forced to accommodate the Mesmers at least as secondaries, it'll take away from the builds they had in mind for other purposes. We'll see how serious (ahem, great!) this is as time goes on like anything else if more and more Mesmers come out with damage builds. Once you are hit by it, it is NOT easy to survive. 90% of the targets I've faced with the full enchilada end up gasping for health or dead.

Remember there are three spikes here, the first spikes are only two seconds apart, and the third one (usually the final blow) comes three seconds later. If you had something like Plague Signet you can at least throw all Conditions at someone (or get major healing help instantly)... other than a Condition purge, your best defense is to not get hexed altogether. It's possible to get through it, but by no means is it easy unless you're thoroughly prepared for it.

Warriors and Rangers do have interrupts, but they are weapon based. I distort these attempts so often that really, a Plan B is needed for these classes to interrupt my casts consistently. That's why I love Distortion sooooooo much. I can have a Warrior swinging his little heart out as I use four or five casts to take out his brother Elementalist, and I barely know he's next to me. Necro's Rigor Mortis stops this I'm guessing, but again, they are forced to include skills (or a full secondary class) they may not otherwise have carried, making their older builds less effective in their intended purpose than before.

Rajamic · Jul 25, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I think I still prefer the Ranger Fragility Build, simply because even if they do get in a hex removal, I'm still interrupting with my Incendiary arrows.

Also note that this one relies on that deep wound being there for Virulence. If they get the condition removed by a monk or if they have a necro class transfer it to someone, it throws this off as well. I don't see deep Wound removal being a big thing right now, but if this becomes popular and considered dangerous, you can bet conditions will be removed quickly when under Fragility.

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Jul 25, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I admit that this is a great build, but these days it is hard to find good people who are not somehow guarded against hexes, either by themselves or by their teammates. I mean, if I had fragility on me, I'd know that something horrible is coming, the only time when someone cast fragility is when they have some sort of spike plan setup. I'd report is with ctrl click and hopefully my monk will take it off. Of course this would never happen because I would have hex breaker on anyways!

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Deep Wound removal is not a consistent solution, especially if you are looking for help elsewhere. Once that Condition is applied, Virulence is immediately cast which takes only .6-.7 of a second to come out with decent Fast Cast stats. You'd want to remove Fragility, but only attempt a removal BEFORE Phantom Pain is laid down.

I've seen monks remove Phantom Pain from their Fragilitized Elementalist teamate I was going after. That's like opening up a window hoping a fly would leave when instead ten more flies come through. The late hex removal triggers Deep Wound for me while leaving Fragility untouched. I see the Condition arrow, lay down Fragility and watch the fireworks.

In the quickest sequence possible, I cast Fragility-->Phantom Pain (if on a caster, Backfire is placed first or second). From start to finish they have about four seconds to recognze Fragility as it slowly appears before PP protects it from removal. Once Deep Wound is down (by their Hex removal or my Shatter Delusions), they honestly have little hope to stop Virulence and it's .6-.7 cast time. It can be done of course, but not consistently.

If you don't come with the right defenses (either prevention, hex removals or heals).... my advice is to run like a teenage girl in a horror flick once you see Fragility coming at you. Warriors with sprint skills have a great option in this regard. Better to live in fear than to die with honor. Fragility does no damage on its own, and if the Mesmer got close enough he'll likely get Phantom Pain off as well, but you don't want anything else to happen to you after that.

Neo-LD · Jul 26, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

One thing everyone needs to remember is that not everyone can carry hex breaker. I monked against this combo yesterday and had hex breaker up the entire time, but the Me/N went for our necro instead. Monks do not like wasting 2 slots for anti-hex, so there was nothing I could do to help him except toss a word of healing near the end of the combo. WoH actually worked pretty well, but still, the combo was dangerous the entire game.

Red Locust · Jul 26, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

If I'm not mistaken, the fragility damage comes in piecemeal, in sets of 30s, so a healing seed would really hamper this strategy. Now healing seed itself is vulnerable to enchantment removal, but then all enchantments are.

Again, this build is too reliant on all the skills hitting successfully. If anything goes wrong (and there's a pretty long list of things that could go wrong), you're pretty useless.

arredondo · Jul 26, 2005, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Lol, if you've read through this thread, you couldn't possibly single out this build as being "useless" if any one thing goes wrong. Which builds operate at 100% efficiency when something they try goes wrong as well? There are all kinds of substitute offensive flows I cast with my build, as well as the option to hold tight for 10- 15 secondswith a strong defensive strat until my offensive time returns.

It's silly with any build to play as a robot with no flexibility to adjust to one's situation. Don't just assume a player will just walk around casting five spells thinking that alone will win. Access to a variety of tactics and on-the-fly adjustment is important for ANY build. We all should have a plan B, C, D, E, and so on. Here's some examples of what I mean.

If I am low on energy or have a skill or two stopped, I simply (and easily) adjust with what I have left. I mean, all I need is but two seconds to cast PP-->SD on a target, I've done 35% damage using 15E. If I see an opponent with a Condition on them (via a fellow Warrior or Necro), I can cast Fragility-->Virulence to get 40% damage using 20E. If I see an Elementalist Air attacking the crap out of my teammate (or me!), I cast Backfire-->Phantom Pain for protection if their smart, or big damage if they are greedy.

The only time I've found myself useless after playing probably hundreds of matches with this build (or variations) is when another counter build just hounds me the entire round (Mesmer based so far). Other than that, it is no more or less useful than any other build out there when the main strat is disrupted.

As for ease of disruption.... it depends. Spirit builds? Sure, but that disrupts 10,000 other caster builds. Other Mesmers or sub-Mesmers? Duly noted and respected. Insane healing or monk protection? The same can be said vs. almost any other build as well. After that, it is a case by case situation to find more stuff that works (Obsidian Flesh users, etc.).

If one character can somehow avoid my main attack sequence in its entirety, they still will often feel some pain regardless - and that's only if I am solo-Rambo hunting. If I have to, I'll team up with a buddy and my limited 50% damage in 4-5 seconds still makes an significant impact. As it stands now, I've killed way more Air Eles one vs. one than they've killed me. That's merely a testamment of its potency, not a claim of unstoppability. No build is uber-dominating, but this one isn't close to being "useless" by any means if you are smart and play on your feet.

Rajamic · Jul 26, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

About the only reason I'd not like this is the guessing game of hex removal it causes. If you Shatter Delusions while someone is removing hex on the unfortunate soul, then one of you removes Fragility. If you don't remove a hex, then they can time the condition removal spell to hit just as the Deep Wound occurs (Though I should point out that this requires the monk to know about both hexes being in play and be familiar with this build, not something I would expect unless/until this becomes FotW).

I'd definitely rate this fragility build as being superior to the Mark of Rodgort version, simply because hex removal is almost pivotal to it, rather than completely decimating it.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 26, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Those are a majority of reasons why I went the energy draining route. Losing energy is very hard to counter.